هل تصح اثبات وجود الله من وراء الاستدلال العقلي

[محمد إسماعيل متشل]

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله تعالى وبركاته

كنت اقرأ منذ زمن طويل في كتب المتكلمين حول مسألة اثبات وجود الله عز وجل وبدأت اشك في صحة تلك الاستدلالات,
لانها راجعة على مدلولات العقل ولكن مدلولات العقل لا تنطبق على خالق العقل ومدلولاته فكيف نثبت وجود الله من وراء
العقل? ارجو التوضيح من اهل المنتدى وجزاكم الله خيرا

[جلال علي الجهاني]

كلامك أخي فيه خطورتان: علمية ودينية ،، ولكن قبل أن ندخل في هذا الشأن، أرجو أن توضح معنى كلامك التالي:

(لأنها -أي الاستدلالات- راجعة على مدلولات العقل ..)

فهل لك أن تشرح أولاً معنى هذه الجملة، حتى يمكن التباحث معك حول ما تقول ؟

[محمد إسماعيل متشل]

الأخ جمال: السلام عليكم

كما ترى انا لا اتكلم اللغة العربية جيدا فلذا سانقل كلامي بالانجليزية ولك ان ترد بالعربية لانني افهم اللغة ولكني لا اتقنها كلاما

Logic (mantiq) consists of 'rules'. Do these rules apply to Allah? No. If not, then how can we use logic to prove Allah, when Allah is not under these rules?

وشكرا

[ماهر محمد بركات]

بالاذن من سيدي جلال :
أخ محمد :
قوله تعالى : (لو كان فيهما الهة الا الله لفسدتا )
هل ترى أن الله يثبت وحدانيته بمدلول العقل الغير صالح للاستدلال به ؟

[خالد محمد بوشافع]

الاستدلال بالعقل

Br The ulamah have categorised the the statements into three categories
One is the Hukm (statement produced or deducted by the sacred law hukm shar3i, the second is the empirical statemnt thats is based on experimental proofs and the third is the Hukm A3qli which is the Intellectual statemen based on reasoning
The issues of aqidah concerning the attributes,aessence and actions of Allah, some of these are proven by the sacred law and implies hererthat the evidences must be certain.and do not have doubt.
Others are based on the intellectual proofs that arew common sense, and can be denied or rejected by the sound intellect that is the hukm aqli>
The hukm a3qli are three trypes wajib necessary ,,Inconceivable mustaheel and jaiz is the conceivable.
to be continued must go to jumaua' australia

[محمد إسماعيل متشل]

assalamu alaykum

to br. khalid: as I've said, I've been studying the arguments of the mutakallimin for over a year, and so I know the three ways one can reach truth. I also know the basics, such as everything in 'aql is either necessary (wajib), possible (mumkin), impossible (mustahil).

So, answer these questions, if you can, or give them to sheikh sa'id or sheikh jalal, wallahu a'lam.

(1) Did Allah create logic (al-mantiq) and the intellect (aql)?
(2) If Allah created them, then can Allah be bound by logic? meaning, can the rules of logic apply to Allah, even though they are His creation?
(3) If they are uncreated, please clarify how this can be when Qur'an karim tells us that 'Allahu khaliqa kulla shay'
(4) If the rules of logic don't apply to Allah, how can we prove Allah's existence with logic? As you know, only things that logic applies to can be proven by logic.

واما بالنسبة الى سؤال الاخ ماهر فساحاول الرد عليه باللغة العربية

اما الأية الكريمة المذكورة فمن المعلوم انك ستجد خلاف بين المتكلمين من الاشاعرة فمنهم من قال ان دليل الوحدانية شرعي
ومنهم من يقول انه عقلي كما تجد في كتاب شرح جوهرة التوحيد للشيخ البيجوري

فالأية لا تدل بالضرورة على انها استدلال عقلي

والسلام

[خالد محمد بوشافع]

المنطق

First of all there three books where you'll find the answer in
ragards to your questions

تدعيم المنطق للشيخ سعيد
أقسام الحكم العقلي، وبيان معناها والعلاقة بين العقل وبين النقل
للشيخ سعيد
معيار العلم للغزالي

================

Did Allah create logic (al-mantiq) and the intellect (aql)?

answer:
Yes indeed Allah is the creator of everything including our intellect and whatever we conclude as a result of our reasoning
I m not sure about the last questions the way you phrased may if you could rephrase it again
As far as i have understood i would be answering as follow:=======
You said: then can Allah be bound by logic? meaning, can the rules of logic apply to Allah, even though they are His creation
====
answer:
No one would be able to describe Allah as Allah has described Himself in the Quran
The Human mind, concept or intellect is limited to understand His essence and His attributes due to our capacity we can not conceive Allah.
BUT we have been commanded to use our intellect and ponder, think and contemplate on His creations to come out with a evidence tghrough His creation that Allah exist and the cosmos has a creator who is necessary existent.
1) Knowing and recognising Allah does not mean knowing the reality of the essence. That is for two reasons: one it is inconceivable and impossible for human being to conceive Allah due to our limited senses as it has proven by the Ulamah; the other reason we were not made responsible or accountable for that; rather we were commanded to learn the related ahkaam related to the essence, attributes, and the actions of Allah.
2) Knowing the ahkaam of certain attributes, not all the attributes of Allah, because Allahs attributes and qualities are limitless and infinite.
3) What we were ordered to know is a part of these attributes, which will bring the correct aqidah.
4) No one knows Allah than Allah.
5) Rasulullahs knowledge regarding to the attributes much higher than any other human, though he does not say that he knows everything about Allah.
6) We do not know about the universe, how could we know about the essence and the attributes of Allah.
7) The condition of the intellect and thinking is having the ability of the five senses as, the result of our thinking is from the five sense which are limited.
Imam tahawi states in His treatise:
He is beyond having limits placed on Him, or being restricted, or having parts or limbs. Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are.
======
we used our senses and our intellect to reach a conclusion that Allah exist.
,


Allah has given several examples in the Quran of the arguments between the porphets of Allah who try to proof that Allah exist and He is the One and no one is beside Him:
Imam Razi mentions in his tafseer:
اعلم أن قوله الحمد لله إشارة إلى إثبات الصانع المختار وتقريره : أن المعتمد في إثبات الصانع في القرآن هو الاستدلال بخلقة الإنسان على ذلك ألا ترى أن إبراهيم عليه السلام قال # : ربي الذي يحيي ويميت وقال في موضع آخر # : الذي خلقني فهو يهدين وقال موسى عليه السلام # : ربنا الذي أعطى كل شيء خلقه ثم هدى وقال في موضع آخر # : ربكم ورب آبائكم الأولين وقال تعالى في أول سورة البقرة : ^ { يا أيها الناس اعبدوا ربكم الذي خلقكم والذين من قبلكم لعلكم تتقون } ^ [ البقرة : 21 ] وقال في أول ما أنزله على محمد عليه السلام : ^ { اقرأ باسم ربك الذي خلق خلق الإنسان من علق } ^ [ العلق : 1 ] فهذه الآيات الست تدل على أنه تعالى استدل بخلق الإنسان على وجود الصانع تعالى وإذا تأملت في القرآن وجدت هذا النوع من الاستدلال فيه كثيرا جدا . واعلم أن هذا الدليل كما أنه في نفسه هو دليل فكذلك هو نفسه إنعام عظيم فهذه الحالة من حيث أنها تعرف العبد وجود الإله دليل ومن حيث أنها نفع عظيم وصل من الله إلى العبد إنعام فلا جرم هو دليل من وجه وإنعام من وجه والإنعام متى وقع بقصد الفاعل إلى إيقاعه إنعاما كان يستحق هو الحمدوحدوث بدن الإنسان أيضا كذلك وذلك لأن تولد الأعضاء المختلفة الطبائع والصور والأشكال من النطفة المتشابهة الأجزاء لا يمكن إلا إذا قصد الخالق إيجاد تلك الأعضاء على تلك الصور والطبائع فحدوث هذه الأعضاء المختلفة يدل على وجود صانع عالم بالمعلومات قادر على كل المقصودات قصد بحكم رحمته وإحسانه خلق هذه الأعضاء على الوجه المطابق لمصالحنا الموافق لمنافعنا ومتى كان الأمر كذلك كان مستحقا للحمد والثناء >>>END
===
THEN HE MENTIONNED ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF USING THE INTEELECT IN THE QURAN aLLAH SAYS:
* وكذلك نرى إبراهيم ملكوت السمـاوات والارض وليكون من الموقنين ،
وقوله تعالى: {قل هاتوا برهـانكم }

وقال أخرى: {وتلك حجتنا ءاتينـاها إبراهيم على قومه >

====
The reason the ulamah talked about the three rational statement are to be used for achieving the concept of Attributes and entity otherwise it is inconceivable to discuss the reality of the essence and the attributes of Allah as well as the actions
wallahu alam
This is what i have understood from your question
If the questions is in regards that Allah is the creator of our actions and our thoughts thats to do with Qada and qadar causality and free wil has a different statementl
wassalam

[ماهر محمد بركات]

أخي محمد اسماعيل :

ليس موضوعي هو هل ثبتت الوحدانية بدليل عقلي أم شرعي حتى تقول ذلك ..

القدر الذي يهمني هو هذه الآية هل تشتمل على دليل عقلي أم لا ؟؟

فاذا كانت تشتمل على دليل عقلي كما هو واضح جلي فاذاً هل يصح أن يستدل الحق تعالى بدليل عقلي على وحدانيته ويكون الاستدلال بمدلول العقل لايصح كما تقول ؟؟

هذا هو محل الاستشهاد فتأمل بارك الله فيك .

[محمد إسماعيل متشل]

"First of all there three books where you'll find the answer..."

Can you please point out where in these books I'll find the answer, as I'm a college student with little time .

Here, I will rephrase my question, since I know that we believe that Allah created logic:

(1) Logic has rules, correct? for example, it has the law of non-contradiction (in Arabic it is حكم استحالة الجمع بين النقيضين). So if someone said 'the rules of logic do not apply to me,' then the laws of logic cannot be used to disprove anything He says about himself, as he is not underneath the rules of logic.

Therefore, if Allah created the rules of logic, then He (subhanahu wa ta'ala) could not be underneath them, as they are created (haadith) and Allah (subhanahu) does not change, as He is perfect. If he is not underneath them, then we can't use the rules of logic to prove anything about him, since to prove something with logic means the thing you are proving is underneath logic, and Allah is not underneath logic. Given this, doesn't this mean that the proofs for Allah's existence are not valid (ghayr sahiha?)

" Allah has given several examples in the Quran of the arguments between the porphets of Allah : who try to proof that Allah exist and He is the One and no one is beside Him
: Imam Razi mentions in his tafseer"

Here, Imam al-Razi (rahimahullah) says that the MU'TAMAD amongst the Asha'ira is that these verses refer to logical proofs, but as I said these can also mean Allah's mentioning of bounty (in'am) to the son of Adam, or just statements (akhbar) of the reality of the matter. Just like when Allah says that if he were to chose a son, he would have .... (ila akhir qawlihi ta'ala). this is not a logical proof, as the Ash'ariyyah say that it is logically impossible for Allah to have a son. Do you understand what I'm saying, sidi?

وجزاكم الله خيرا والسلام

[محمد إسماعيل متشل]

الرسالة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة ماهر محمد بركات
أخي محمد اسماعيل :

ليس موضوعي هو هل ثبتت الوحدانية بدليل عقلي أم شرعي حتى تقول ذلك ..

القدر الذي يهمني هو هذه الآية هل تشتمل على دليل عقلي أم لا ؟؟

فاذا كانت تشتمل على دليل عقلي كما هو واضح جلي فاذاً هل يصح أن يستدل الحق تعالى بدليل عقلي على وحدانيته ويكون الاستدلال بمدلول العقل لايصح كما تقول ؟؟

هذا هو محل الاستشهاد فتأمل بارك الله فيك .

كما قلت سابقا يا اخ ماهر الاية الكريمة لا تشتمل على دليل عقلي ولو كان الاية تشتمل بالقطع على دليل عقلي لما وقع الخلاف المذكور بين المتكلمين

ولكن ما موقفكم من سؤالي في ان العقل تشتمل على احكام كحكم استحالة الجمع بين النقيضين والله تعالى خالق العقل
ومدلولاته فنقول اذا الله تعالى لا ينطبق عليه تلك الاحكام فكيف نثبت لله الوجود بمادة العقل? ارجو ان تكونوا فاهمين لسؤالي ولو ان عربيتي ضعيف جدا وبارك الله فيكم والسلام

[سعيد فودة]

الأخ العزيز
لقد أجبت على هذا السؤال في رابط آخر وهو سؤال الأخ بو شافع
فأرجو أن تقرأه هناك

[أحمد محمد نزار]

[ALIGN=CENTER]Dear Mohammad,


Almighty Allah is the Creator right
The Creator created the intellect right

Can you tell me why He created the intellect
He created the intellect to use it

In which way we should use that intellect
Almighty Allah told us
" وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ "

The precise interpretations of this verse is: the meaning
"ليعبدون "
is to "KNOW ME"



Well,
Here we have two prefaces

First Almighty Allah created the Intellect in the mankind to use it
Second Almighty Allah Created mankind to Know Him

The conclusion is
Almighty Allah Create the Intellect to know Him

Therefore we are complying with His wish to know Him through the intellect that he gifted us


Some may say Why we should use the intellect to know Him We are to use the Sharia Jurisdictions which are quite enough the Koran and Sunna

We'll tell him Could you explain any other way than the Intellect to understand the Shria

The answer simply NO

The intellect is the only way we have enabling us to understand the Sharia

so here we are going back to intellect again. [/ALIGN]

[محمد إسماعيل متشل]

Br. Ahmad:

Almighty Allah is the Creator right
The Creator created the intellect right

Can you tell me why He created the intellect
He created the intellect to use it

Ofcourse he created it to use it, but then this means that the rules of logic (mantiq) do not apply to Allah, since they are makhluq (created), and what is created cannot be applied to Alllah. Here is my argument:

1. Allah created the science of logic (`ilm al-mantiq), and he created its rules.
2. To prove something with logic, the rules of logic must apply to it.
3. The rules of logic don't apply to Allah, since Allah created them, and they are created (hadith), but Allah is not created (hadith).

Conclusion: We can't prove anything about Allah with logic.

I haven't read Sheikh Sa'id's words yet, so maybe It'll be cleared up afterwards.

[أحمد محمد نزار]

[ALIGN=CENTER]Brother Mohamad.
Your essential argument is: (since they are makhluq (created), and what is created cannot be applied to Alllah) this is wot you said.
Now I need to ask you very important Question:

Wot do U mean by "applied to"?
a- If you mean that such way of logical intellectual act cannot be used as a logical mental approach to prove for example the existence of Almighty Allah?

I do affirm that such way is permissible to be used and such a way used by prophets actually like Abraham (PBUH) when he asked the Namrood if he can to bring the sun from the west and the story is well known?

أَلَمْ تَرَ إِلَى الَّذِي حَآجَّ إِبْرَاهِيمَ فِي رِبِّهِ أَنْ آتَاهُ اللّهُ الْمُلْكَ إِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّيَ الَّذِي يُحْيِـي وَيُمِيتُ قَالَ أَنَا أُحْيِـي وَأُمِيتُ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ يَأْتِي بِالشَّمْسِ مِنَ الْمَشْرِقِ فَأْتِ بِهَا مِنَ الْمَغْرِبِ فَبُهِتَ الَّذِي كَفَرَ وَاللّهُ لاَ يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ

So, Abrahma (PBUH) is used this way to prove that Allah is the creator and He is solely be able do such things. i.e. Abrahma used Intellect.

b- If you mean that such way as a rule of thinking is applied to the God in a way (makes change in his being, or affect his being, or add or reduce a meaning of his being). Yea we say this is prohibited.

You committed very big mistake when you said: ((hadith), but Allah is not created (hadith))

As a matter of fact, Almighty Allah created EVERYTHING
Hadith is created by Him and this is one of the huge constants of Ahlulsunna Wa Al Jama'a.

Anyway you said: ( We can't prove anything about Allah with logic.)

And this is contradict with what the infallibles "prophets" did? Such as I told you Abraham (PBUH)?!!!

So either you'll tell Abraham was mistaken by using logic and intellect and this is contradict with all Shria?

Or you'll admit that such a way is permissible, or necessary to be used and it's applied to Allah on the first concept mentioned-above. [/ALIGN]

[خالد حمد علي]

أطالبُ الأخوة / أحمد نزار ، وأباشافع ، أنْ يُقيْما دورة في تعلم اللغة الانجليزية في هذا المنتدى

حاولتُ أنْ أنقل كلامَ الأخوة لبرامج الترجمة ، فوجدتُها تخبط في اختيار المُصطلحات والألفاظ ، فلم أثق بها .

فمَنْ أرَادَ أنْ يُجيْبَ فليُجبْ باللغتيْن ، فإنّ للسائل حقاً ولنا حقوقاً .